20 Baiocchi 1865-R AN XIX

I have a 20 baiocchi 1865-R AN XIX Papal States coin. The SCWC, Numismaster and NGC all have this coin as KM# 1360 which would make it N#3585

However, the Numista listing for KM# 1360 stops at 1864. Numista lists the coin I have as N#38287 which would make it a KM# 1360a coin.

Is my coin KM# 1360/N# 3585 or KM# 1360a/N#38287?

One other thing I noticed about the N# 3585 Numista page: The coin shown at the top of the page clearly is dated 1864 (which would make it a KM# 1360/N# 3585 coin), but the written description of the obverse and reverse below the coin pictures have it as an 1865 AN XIX (the same as my coin) which would make it a KM# 1360a/N#38287 coin. This suggests the picture for the KM# 1360/N#3585 coin was, at one time, the coin I have, but at some time in the past that date (1865) for the 20 Baiocchi was moved to KM#1360a/N#38287 (why?) and the picture on the KM# 1360/N#3585 page was changed to an 1864 dated coin (but the description of the obverse and reverse of the coin was not changed). 

Please add images of  your coin – both sides, and crop the images to just the coin – so we can give an opinion the type.

As for the lettering not matching the image, that happens when people don't pay close attention when editing. (And that can happen to anyone.) When you notice issues like that it's easy to fix. Click the pen icon in the upper right of the page or the Modify or add data on this page link at the bottom, correct the field, give an explanation in the source field, and click Modify data.

thoram2

 

Is my coin KM# 1360/N# 3585 or KM# 1360a/N#38287?

Since you have a 1865-R AN XIX, according to Krause you should have a KM# 1360:

But to make it more complicated, the Italian catalog says there also exists a 1865-R AN XIX for the .835 version:

thoram2

 

This suggests the picture for the KM# 1360/N#3585 coin was, at one time, the coin I have, but at some time in the past that date (1865) for the 20 Baiocchi was moved to KM#1360a/N#38287 (why?)

I don't know if the 1865-R AN XIX was moved to KM# 1360a or just deleted at KM# 1360.

Anyway, both Krause and the Italian catalog confirm there exists a 1865-R AN XIX for both KM# 1360 and KM# 1360a.

thoram2

 

Is my coin KM# 1360 or KM# 1360a?

There is a difference in weight between KM# 1360 and KM# 1360a. KM# 1360 weighs 5.71 g and KM# 1360a weighs 5.33 g. That difference should be enough to determine if your coin is KM# 1360 or KM# 1360a, although it's strange the coin with the highest silver content is the one with the lowest weight.

If you're not convinced after weighing your coin, the only solution is using RFX equipment.

My thanks to everyone who helped me with this. 

I weighed the coin in question on high accuracy balance at work, and it came out to 5.313 grams - which means it is KM# 1360a coin. The diameter was 24.4 mm, which is consistent for both types of this coin.

I wonder if anyone has the KM# 1360 version of this particular coin (based upon its weight)?

One final post on this - 

The pages from the Italian Coin Catalog indicate another way to tell if one has the KM# 1360/N-3585 or KM# 1360a/N-38287 20 baiocchi 1865 XIX coin: the obverse legend on the KM# 1360 coin apparently ends with A.XIX, while the obverse legend on the KM# 1360a coin ends with AN.XIX

In addition to matching the weight of the KM# 1360a coin, the obverse legend on my coin ends with AN.XIX (which it should if it is a KM# 1360a coin).

This is the first time I have ever seen the Italian Coin Catalog. One the pages copied for this forum discussion, for each coin, there is a column for rarity. I assume “C” means “common”, and “R” means “rare”. The coin I have is given the designation of “R2” - what does that mean?

The numista webpage for the KM# 1360/N-3585 coins ends with the 1864-R XIX date. based upon this forum discussion, the date 1865-R A.XIX should be added. At the present time, the only option for an 1865-R XIX coin is to add it to the KM# 1360a/N-38287 Numista web page, and it is possible that some of the 1865-R XIX coins on that page might actually be KM# 1360/N-3585 coins (which the Italian Coin Catalog indicates are more common). Now, it is easy to tell the difference - just check if the obverse legend ends with A.XIX or AN.XIX.

Again, thanks for all the help with this - the discussion has been very interesting and useful.  

It's a category of rare above R, what that means has to be explained in the catalog. There are countless rarity systems that are used (examples) or it can be unique to the catalog.

thoram2

 

This is the first time I have ever seen the Italian Coin Catalog. 

Here it is, but there are more than one Italian coin catalogs:

thoram2

 

One the pages copied for this forum discussion, for each coin, there is a column for rarity. I assume “C” means “common”, and “R” means “rare”. The coin I have is given the designation of “R2” - what does that mean?

thoram2

 

The numista webpage for the KM# 1360/N-3585 coins ends with the 1864-R XIX date. based upon this forum discussion, the date 1865-R A.XIX should be added. At the present time, the only option for an 1865-R XIX coin is to add it to the KM# 1360a/N-38287 Numista web page, and it is possible that some of the 1865-R XIX coins on that page might actually be KM# 1360/N-3585 coins (which the Italian Coin Catalog indicates are more common). Now, it is easy to tell the difference - just check if the obverse legend ends with A.XIX or AN.XIX.

Keen eye about the AN - A thing. Based upon Krause and this Italian catalog I agree the 1865 A. XIX should be replaced from the KM# 1360a coin page  to the KM# 1360 coin page. 

However it's not always as simple as it looks. Like I've said there are more than one Italian catalogs, maybe there's more information in one of the others why Numista doesn't follow Krause and this Italian catalog. We already know there are plenty of mistakes in Krause, just like there are in Numista, and in this Italian catalog something is wrong too:

When you look at the pictures for the Ag .800 5,71 g. coin, you'll see it's a 1865 AN.XIX, which is not consistent with the description in the year list which says 1865 has A.XIX

thoram2

 

Now, it is easy to tell the difference - just check if the obverse legend ends with A.XIX or AN.XIX.

And here is another problem: https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=5463493

I don't know if auction houses actually weigh every coin they offer or just get the information from a catalog. This particular description says 1865, AN XIX while it's obviously A XIX, so that's not correct, maybe the weight isn't either. But if the weight is correct, it means 1865 A.XIX exists as both KM# 1360 and KM# 1360a and you can no longer determine the type by the AN - A thing.

But to be honest, there are so many web pages about this coin type (https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?term=20+baiocchi+1865&category=1-2&lot=&date_from=&date_to=&thesaurus=1&images=1&en=1&de=1&fr=1&it=1&es=1&ot=1&currency=usd&order=0) and this is the only one which is not on line with our findings. So it's quite possible they didn't weigh the coin but took the information from the catalog.

So:

thoram2

 

One final post on this 

I don't think it will be your final post on this.

Sorry to make it so complicated.

There are other mistakes/shortcomings on the Numista coin pages for these types, so I'll contact the Papal States referee and see what he says. I'll keep you posted here.